Should They Be Put Down..

Discussion in 'Behaviour & Training' started by Pocs, Aug 3, 2012.

  1. Pocs

    Pocs Well-Known Member

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    This is a situation that occurred several years ago..

    A neighbor has two dogs, a small Yorkie and a Pitbull, their names Lolli and Pops. You could always find them playing together in their fenced yard. The children of the neighborhood all knew the dogs well and would frequently stop by to pet and love on them. A new family moved into the neighborhood with children of varying ages also began to visit Lolli and Pops. On this particular day the children had entered the yard, which sometimes occasionally would occur by the other children in the neighborhood. The smaller child picked Lolli up and somehow caused her to cry out in pain. This caused Pops the Pitbull to run to her defense. He approached the child, growled and nudged him. He did not bite this child. A older child, thinking they were defending their sibling grabbed a near by stick and began hitting Pops repeatly. After several blows Pops jumped the child, biting him twice. The children's parents called Animal Control and the police and Pops was was taken away. In the end Pops was put down, reason, attacking a child. It didn't matter that the children had entered Pops yard or that the smaller child hurt Lolli.
    The entire story outraged our neighborhood, many of us protested in favor of saving Pops, who was really a lovely dog. Lolli passed on a few months later, I believe from loneliness from missing Pops. A sad sad story. I find myself wondering if Pops was put down because he was a Pitbull? This was at the height of the Pitbull controversy . Would things have been different if Pops would have been a Beagle or some other breed? Your thought?
     
    Pocs, Aug 3, 2012
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  2. Pocs

    Victor Leigh Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it would have made much difference if Pops was a Pitbull or a Beagle. The problem is not with the dog or the dog breed. The real problem is with the people who are pretending to be upholding the law.

    There is one very well-documented case where a dog was put down not because it attacked anyone but because it looked like one of the prohibited breeds.

    What needs to be done is for all dog-lovers to unite and put an end to such laws. Plus push for new laws to punish people who interpret the laws wrongly to put down innocent dogs.
     
    Victor Leigh, Aug 3, 2012
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  3. Pocs

    Pocs Well-Known Member

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    So true, the voice of many for change. I have always tried to uphold the rights of all breeds. I don't or haven't owned a Pitbull, but I am activily
    involved with their protection. There are so many other things wrong with the world, that seeking out dogs because of the breed is a witch hunt.
     
    Pocs, Aug 3, 2012
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  4. Pocs

    Victor Leigh Well-Known Member

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    Are you, by any chance, familiar with the case of Lennox? It was put down after a two-year court battle which the owners lost. The last I heard, they are still continuing to fight to have the law changed so that no other dogs would be condemned by their breed. I think the law in question is Breed Specific Legislation.
     
    Victor Leigh, Aug 3, 2012
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  5. Pocs

    argon_0 Well-Known Member

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    Pocs that was a sad story. Reason should have prevailed.:( It should be considered case by case and not because of reputation.
    50% of attacks occur on private property.
    Here are some stats I came across from another site if you can follow them.No specific dates were given so I guess you need to work out the percentage. Unfortunately Pit Bull Terriers are high on the list and I did the % for you. They accounted for 50% of dog bites, 43% on children 60% on adults 15% of deaths and 50% injury.
    Of course we don't know the circumstances and the first figure is biting which in many cases did not result in injury though 54% of dog bites did result in injury.

    Dog Bite statistics by breed

    The numbers represent five colums, Column #1 is Breed Attacks doing Bodily Harm, #2 is Child Victims, #3 is Adult Victims, #4 is Deaths and #5 is Maiming. Additionally, this info is specific to dogs that were family pets.
    #1 #2 #3 #4 #5​
    Breed Attacks Child, Adult, Deaths, Maiming(injury)

    Akita 48 32 14 1 39
    Akita mix (inspecific) 1 1 0 0 1
    Akita/Chow mix 3 3 0 0 3
    Akita/Lab mix 1 1 0 0 1
    Akita/terrier mix 2 1 0 0 1
    Airedale/boxer 1 1 0 1 0
    Airedale 1 1 0 1 0
    Australian blue heeler 3 1 1 0 2
    Australian cattle dog 1 1 0 0 1
    Australian shepherd 6 4 0 0 1
    Basset/GSD mix 1 1 0 1 0
    Beagle 2 2 0 1 1
    Belgian shepherd 4 1 3 0 1
    Blue heeler 2 0 1 0 1
    Border collie 1 0 1 1 1
    Briard 2 0 1 1 0
    Brittany spaniel 4 1 0 0 1
    Bulldog (American 4 0 3 2 2
    Bulldog (English) 16 8 3 1 9
    Bull mastiff (Presa Canario) 30 10 13 6 16
    Bull mastiff/German shepherd 2 1 0 1 0
    Buff mastiff/Rottweiler 1 1 0 0 1
    Boxer 31 6 12 2 12
    Boxer mix 1 1 0 1 0
    Cane Corso 4 1 2 1 3
    Catahoula 3 0 1 0 1
    Chow 49 34 12 6 32
    Chow/husky mix 2 2 0 1 1
    Chow/Labrador mix 4 4 0 0 3
    Chox mix (other) 2 2 0 0 2
    Cocker spaniel 1 1 0 0 1
    Collie 3 3 0 0 3
    Collie/retriever mix 1 1 0 0 1
    Coonhound 1 1 0 0 0
    Dalmatian 3 3 0 0 3
    Dalmatian/Akita mix 1 1 0 0 1
    Dauschund 2 1 1 1 2
    Doberman 11 7 4 3 7
    Doge de Bordeaux 2 1 0 0 1
    East Highland terrier 1 0 1 1 0
    Fila Brasiero 1 1 0 0 1
    German shepherd 63 42 17 7 38
    German shepherd mix 31 21 7 6 19
    German shepherd/husky mix 4 3 1 1 2
    Golden retriever 6 6 0 1 4
    Great Dane 24 5 4 2 9
    Great Pyranees 1 0 1 1 0
    Greyhound 1 1 0 0 1
    Husky 39 23 4 13 8
    Husky/Malamute mix 2 2 0 0 2
    Husky/Labrador mix 1 0 1 0 1
    Jack Russell terrier 2 1 1 1 0
    Labrador 26 18 9 2 20
    Labrador mix 10 9 1 0 9
    Labrador/boxer mix 1 0 1 0 0
    Lab-Doberman 1 1 0 0 1
    Lab-St. Bernard 1 1 0 0 1
    Malamute 8 7 1 3 3
    Mastiff 16 11 4 4 9
    Norwegian elkhound 1 0 1 0 1
    Pit bull terrier 1110 495 397 104 608
    Pit bull boxer mix 5 1 2 0 2
    Pit bull/chow mix 5 2 3 1 3
    Pit bull/Doberman/GSD/Lab 2 2 0 0 2
    Pit bull/GSD mix 1 1 0 0 1
    Pit bull/Lab mix 15 10 4 3 8
    Pit bull/Rott. mix 39 7 3 2 8
    Pit bull/Sheltie mix 1 1 0 0 1
    Pit bull/Weimaraner mix 1 0 1 0 1
    Pit mix unknown 3 2 0 0 2
    Pointer mix 1 0 1 0 0
    Pomeranian 1 1 0 1 0
    Poodle 2 1 1 0 2
    Pug 1 1 0 0 1
    Pug/Rottweiler mix 2 1 0 1 0
    Queensland heeler 3 0 1 0 1
    Rottweiler 409 231 109 58 223
    Rottweiler/chow mix 1 1 0 0 1
    Rottweiler/GSD mix 13 7 5 2 10
    Rottweiler/Labrador 7 6 1 0 7
    Russian terrier 1 0 1 0 1
    Saint Bernard 6 3 0 1 1
    Sharpei 4 4 0 0 4
    Sharpei/Rottweiler 2 1 0 0 1
    Sharpei/unknown mix 1 1 0 0 1
    Sharpei/Labrador 1 1 0 0 1
    Springer spaniel 3 4 0 0 4
    Tosa 1 1 0 0 1
    Weimaeaner 1 1 0 0 1
    Wheaten terrier 2 1 0 0 1
    Wolf hybrid 71 65 3 18 43
    Total: 2209 1142 658 264 1211
     
    argon_0, Aug 4, 2012
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  6. Pocs

    Victor Leigh Well-Known Member

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    Interesting statistics but they don't tell the whole story. I would think that Pitbulls are like that because of the expectations of their owners. The owners expect Pitbulls to be aggressive, so they train them to be aggressive. What happens after that is a natural progression.
     
    Victor Leigh, Aug 4, 2012
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  7. Pocs

    argon_0 Well-Known Member

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    Don't you think though Victor Pit-bull Terriers were bred as fighting dogs so a lot of the aggression would come from their nature. Some would come from nurture, the dog owners expectation that they are a good offensive dog perhaps to protect a toddler? Sure the statistics don't tell how the owner treated their dog and whether aggression was a result. It does give an indication of the breeds ability to socialize with humans to a point.
     
    argon_0, Aug 5, 2012
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  8. Pocs

    Victor Leigh Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, I have not really met many Pitbull Terriers. Actually I have met exactly one. It's a purebred and it's very friendly.

    On the other hand, I have met many Bangkeaws. These are really ferocious dogs. They cannot even get on with their own litter mates. The only humans they really love are their owners.

    In Thailand, I haven't heard of anyone faulting a Bangkeaw if it happens to bite someone. Instead, Thais would say that a person is rather stupid and deserves to be bitten if he gets too close to a Bangkeaw. At the same time, people who own Bangkeaws always make sure that their dogs are properly restrained.
     
    Victor Leigh, Aug 5, 2012
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  9. Pocs

    haopee Well-Known Member

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    Victor, I totally have to agree with what you said on the third paragraph.

    Sounds like another Lennox story (except :Lennox didn't bite anyone). I regret knowing neighbors like those but the fact is, their children entered a yard with dogs... shouldn't that count as trespassing? Next, depending on the state or country, the owner can be responsible for their dog in such situation or not.

    In our country, if the dog has bitten someone inside the premises of your home, no one has the right to have the dog confiscated or killed. Moreover, if the dog didn't have rabies, you don't necessarily need to pay for anti-rabies shots.

    I bet if Pops were a Chihuahua, he wouldn't have been put down. I bet my Shih Tzu is scarier.

    Those people should get evicted out of your neighborhood. Their ignorant children might get your dogs killed, too. There's a danger in the lack of education and the parents are not providing that. People who come in contact with dogs should have at least some basic information on how to read dog signals.
     
    haopee, Aug 5, 2012
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  10. Pocs

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    I have to agree with Victor. My brother's Doberman attacked a family dog (not my brother's family, but someone close to him) that had gone after my brother's other Doberman. The reason wasn't because they were Doberman's. It was because the older dog had taken the younger one in as a pup as if he was her baby. He was sickly the first 3 months and this brought out her nurturing instincts. She saw that her "baby" was in danger, even though he was full grown at the time, and she reacted. I think it's much the same with the story you recounted.

    It really saddens and angers me when human behavior is the reason someone gets bitten. We don't seem to factor this in when weighing whether a dog is a danger.

    There are many cases where a dog bites someone and it turns out that the person was where they shouldn't be. A person enters a yard alone knowing there is dog outside. They approach a strange dog and get in its space. A child acts up in front of dog causing the dog to react. I bet if stats were taken, they would find that 99% of these things are caused by the human doing something stupid.
     
    Melody, Aug 5, 2012
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  11. Pocs

    Victor Leigh Well-Known Member

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    Now what we need is a law to penalize people who threaten dogs or infringe on the well-being of dogs. I think we already have laws about that concerning children. Basically, our dogs are just as precious to us as our children. So the legal status of our dogs should be raised, at least, to the level of our children.
     
    Victor Leigh, Aug 6, 2012
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  12. Pocs

    Pocs Well-Known Member

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    Nice stat list argon, it was a little of a eye opener. I also agree with victor, stop going after the dogs and hold the people responsible. Children laws have started to be but into place, and about time. Pets should be reguarded in the sameway. Like many of you I consider my pets my children and look after and protect as I did my own children. Law makers should recognize this.
     
    Pocs, Aug 7, 2012
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  13. Pocs

    Olivia Gajadhar Member

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    I have to say, I have mixed feelings about dogs who bite. I have heard stories about Pitbulls who have maimed people and that is very frightening to me. I've also heard other stories that say it's about how a dog is bred and that even Golden Retrievers are being bred incorrectly and are becoming vicious.

    I'll say this: I've gone up with having dogs as pets most of my life and I love them very much. However, I've also seen people value them more than human beings, and while I think there are some people who are less valuable than dogs, we need to have a bit of a reality check. Yes, these children were in the wrong by being on private property. However, we need to understand that these are children and may not know better. From what has been described, many children in the neighborhood knew the dogs and just loved being around them. One (perhaps accidentally) hurt the smaller dog and was warned by the other dog. The older child simply was protecting the other and also probably did not know any better. Many of you are fond of your dogs, but try to imagine yourselves in the children's shoes or in the shoes of their parents. The older child was bitten by the Pitbull twice. It wasn't mentioned how bad the bites were. Was the child maimed or seriously injured? If this Pitbull bit the arm off of your child, would you be as lenient towards the dog simply because your child was in the wrong? I'm sorry to play the devil's advocate, but I think these are important matters to think about.

    Whether or not I think it was right to put the dog down, I can't say. Obviously, it was a large misunderstanding and mistake of many people. It's hard to say what should have been done. I've been on both sides. There was a girl once who was poking my dog with a stick through the fence many years ago. My dog snarled as a result. Was that girl in the wrong? Of course. Now, I have another dog whom my mother rescued from an animal shelter. He was going to be put down because he bit a four-year-old on the nose. Over time, he became possession aggressive and bit both my mother and my sister very badly just because they came near his bone. They refused to correct the behaviour and he still is possessive of his bone. In fact, I'd say they encourage it by leaving him alone whenever he growls at them (it shows him that his behaviour is working and allows him to think he's the alpha). Others have told me that this dog should have been put down many years ago because he's a violent one. It's hard to judge these matters.

    I just think that it's important to look at all sides of the argument and try to decide what should be done to avoid such problems. One thing I do agree with is that people need to be educated when it comes to dogs.
     
    Olivia Gajadhar, Aug 8, 2012
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  14. Pocs

    MakingCents Well-Known Member

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    It needs to be looked at on a case by case basis. If the pitbull was being hit with a stick he was merely defending HIMSELF. The fact that he was put down is terribly sad.

    I am familiar withe Lennox case too and it's HORRIBLE.

    Rest in peace sweet Lennox, and pops too. It's too bad a few bad people have brought such discrimination against your breed.
     
    MakingCents, Aug 11, 2012
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  15. Pocs

    Evilsprinkles Well-Known Member

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    No, Pops shouldn't have been put down. He was defending his territory, he was attacked by unsupervised children, and he had to pay the price with his life, because nobody had taught the children how not to behave like little monsters around animals. It's very sad when mommy's little angel gets bitten or shoved by an animal, and they immediately want them put down, when in fact, the parent was at fault for allowing the child to behave in such a manner to provoke a dog. It's always the dogs that lose out.

    Dogs that are left untrained and provoked into forming aggressive temperaments, are doomed from the outset, because their 'owners' are morons who don't generally care what happens to them, until they end up mauling someone, because they weren't handled properly. Even those most troubled of dogs can be rehabilitated, but it takes time and a lot of patience. Sadly, sometimes some dogs are too far gone, are beyond help, and the kindest thing you can do, is have them put to sleep. There are too many dogs out there with owners allowing them to run riot and cause harm, and yet it's the gentle ones who haven't done a single thing wrong, that end up dead.

    No justice, none at all.
     
    Evilsprinkles, Aug 15, 2012
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  16. Pocs

    MakingCents Well-Known Member

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    I have a 'fear agressive' dog myself and I live in panic that something is going to happen to him. He basically lives under lock and key, I have heart palpitations when we are outside, when the doorbell rings etc. We are working VERY hard to train him, but I am terrified some thing will happen before he is rehabilitated.
     
    MakingCents, Aug 15, 2012
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  17. Pocs

    Evilsprinkles Well-Known Member

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    Keeping him under lock and key, probably won't help. He needs to be socialised gradually, by starting him off in places with little to no populous around at the time. Perhaps you could try driving him out to a quiet area (if you have a car), and seeing how he does where there are less people about. My bulldog is lovely, but very protective. If he doesn't like the look of someone, he goes a bit nuts. He is always tethered to me.
     
    Evilsprinkles, Aug 15, 2012
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  18. Pocs

    OhioTom76 Well-Known Member

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    You wouldn't put someone else's kid down if they beat up your kid would you? Why do this to someone else's pet? That's terrible that they put this dog down.
     
    OhioTom76, Sep 27, 2012
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  19. Pocs

    MakingCents Well-Known Member

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    Oh well we're working with a trainer, teaching him basic behavior techniques and will be working up to socializing with other dogs and strangers. I just mean that for the time being, unless the professional is around I keep a very tight leash on him.
     
    MakingCents, Sep 28, 2012
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  20. Pocs

    haopee Well-Known Member

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    If basic behavior training doesn't work, try to enroll him in Agility Classes for Reactive Dogs. A friend of mine decided to have her dog train in this kind of class and it has done wonders to her dog's behavior. This said, they're still a long way to go but a start is a big leap. Sometimes, all dogs need is a little structure and purpose and their anxiety and fear becomes a distant past.

    Good luck.
     
    haopee, Sep 28, 2012
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